Secondhand Setlists

I chat with my mother about her go-go group of 15 years coming to a close, what its like to perform the ’60s in your sixties, and what she plans to do with all her leftover costume jewelry, hairpieces, and of course, the boots.

Last weekend, two different bands from Northeast Ohio played their penultimate shows. One of them, Devo, I saw standing in the sand at Darker Waves Festival in Huntington Beach, California. For an act closing in on their last performance, the band appeared relatively nonchalant about the affair. Most gaps between songs consisted of costume changes for the iconic hats and jumpsuits, leaving little banter for the audience. One quip from lead singer Mark Mothersbaugh loosely touched upon closure while motioning towards the sun covered as it set against the Pacific ocean and behind a thick cover of clouds: “As the sun sets in the west, as the sun sets for the west.” Though the statement hinted at what one could presume Mothersbaugh’s feelings may be regarding the last few weeks of tragedy, it kept his sentiments of his band’s own finale somewhat obscure, which I’m sure they might be for him. After 50 years, the show no longer must go on. Anyone who’s ever done a closing night, from Vegas residencies to high school drama productions, knows these events as textbook definition “bittersweet.”

The other Northest Ohio group closing in on the finale of their career is the PopTarts. A go-go dancing quartet who specialize in ’60s acts like the Shangri-Las, the Chiffons, and Lesley Gore, the PopTarts formed back in 2008 consisting of members Lucious Lemon (Julie Matthews), Very Cherry (Laurie Angie), Sweet Green Apple, (Lisa Sommer), and Wild Blueberry (La Farrell), who is also my mother.

My mom and Matthews knew each other from their time in the Cleveland arts scene, and the business-savvy Matthews roped her, Lisa, and Laurie into her new band concept: a ’60s girl group tribute act. Initially conceived during the recession as an extra way to make some cash, the PopTarts grew into something larger than I, and even the members, ever expected.

When my mother first told me she planned to sing “Sunshine, Lollipops, and Rainbows” with hair clip-ins and go-go boots, I cringed a little. You’re going to do this, in public no less? 15-year-old me felt mortified, though I’d been used to both parents performing in bands since I before I was even in the double-digit ages.

Today, 15 years later, I feel much differently. I see what my mom has accomplished and how it shaped my opinions of performance and art as an older person. For La, who has sung in bands since her teenage years, the PopTarts have been her longest performing commitment; quite a feat for starting in your fifties! What she started in my teens continued on into my thirties, a career longer than so many other, larger pop acts. Along the way, the PopTarts picked up new members Groovy Grape (Debi Lewin) and Orange Crush (Kellie Karl), dedicated, older groupies, and a wolf-loving roadie, Ed, all of whom came together out of the joy the group brought them. My myopic teenage embarrassment faded and in its place grew a deep admiration as well as hope, that life can present you some remarkable opportunities so long as you’re bold enough to ask them of life. And my mother, a former traffic reporter and seasoned frontwoman, never lacked for boldness.

I’ve thought a lot about growing older recently. Some of that has to do with being in my 30s, other parts have to do with me watching Golden Girls for the first time. Given current events, I also think about so many who never get to grow old, much less grow old in ways that fulfill us. I don’t think any of us really want to grow old, but the PopTarts showed me that you cannot really predict how you’ll grow old.

As with all things in life, the PopTarts have reached their own finale. They play one final show, a Christmas tree lighting, this Saturday, November 25th. Though officially over as of then, the end of the group has been as La calls it a long goodbye. That long goodbye, as well as many other memories and experiences, make up the contents of the interview below.

Me: So you played your second to last show this past Saturday? How did that make you feel?

Wild Blueberry: Well, I was a little bit — I don’t want to say ‘apprehensive’ — but I was somewhat worried because we were supposed to have a fourth PopTart, a fill-in. She got booked on a cruise, so she went to do that gig instead. It was three of us, which normally there’s four. But it went really well! On the way driving there I thought of how it [traveling to a gig] became very routine, not that exciting. I have to do a bunch of stuff for a gig — the outfit, the hair, the makeup, all that.

But this one felt a little more like an opening night, like this is the end. Maybe some of it was because I was thinking about how we would perform it as three. We have done things as three a lot in the past, but we just hadn’t had as many gigs, and it’s just harder to perform in a smaller group.

The gig was at this private club that we’ve played at in the past, and Julie told them this was our last. It really was our last gig doing PopTarts songs. Our final gig on Saturday is a Christmas show, and we’re just doing some Christmas standards and stuff like that. This one was really the last where we did all the solos that I’ve sung for a million years like “These Boots Are Made for Walking.” So this one really felt like the end. The guy who runs this club made a speech about how great we were as people, very complementary in how we’ve provided so much great entertainment to the club and everybody was so appreciative. At the very end, they brought up a bottle of champagne and four glasses to do a toast to the PopTarts. It was very nice of them and it felt good that we felt like we had done a good show. I’d had some of my bronchitis acting up, but I was singing well and it went well. I stood next to Debi and we had some good belly laughs over things, always fun.

Me: It sounds like the manager really poured one out for you in making such a charming toast for you all. Did you see folks there that you’d recognized?

WB: So the event was at this downtown space called the Hermit Club. It used to be the Union Club, one of those places where people talk about public events, local government. This was an offshoot of it, and they’d been meeting for some type of charity event they do each year. We’ve done this event a few times, maybe five over the last 15 years.

The minute I walked in, one of the women working there was like “Oh hi, oh what can I get you to drink? The girls are upstairs.” Just from the very start they were treating us very good. As a matter of fact, one lady who knows your Aunt Kathy, Linda Lou, she was there, too.

So we did a set and then one of the club members, a guy named Dave, did a magic act. I didn’t really have high hopes because he just looked he didn’t know what he was doing, but that was part of his shtick. He was really a pretty good magician, very clever, and it was cool to say we were on a bill with someone who gave a good performance. Then he goes, “I love being entertained!”

They [Hermit’s] just treated us very well.

Me: How were Julie and Debi feeling that night and after that night? This being one of Julie’s projects, I wondered how she’d feel about it being over.

WB: Debi said a little some stuff along the lines of “It was a good run. We did a good job.” She’s a bit more thoughtful about it and she’s one of the subs. Julie is not very reflective or introspective about stuff. She said [of the show] that it was very nice and great, but she’s hustling up to get out of it. Right now, now that the writers’ strike is over, she has a TV show that’s potentially going to be put into production that she’s excited to focus on. As far as the PopTarts go, she hates wearing go-go boots, and when you’re a Tart, you’re wearing ’em. Part of it is just relief for her. I think she’ll miss it. And if people had kept with it and expressed interest in doing so, she’d have kept booking it. But I think part of that is just to make the money, because she makes more money when she books us.

Me: It’s all business for her which is really interesting to see. Just because she’s so artistic, too, you’d think she’d be a little more sentimental

WB: As I’ve thought about the PopTarts, I’ve realized that Julie was all business, I was the performer, Laurie was the singer, and Lisa was the harmonizer. Four very different women and everybody had their forte so to speak. We were very true to that. I tried to and did get better as a singer, but someone like Laurie just has a good voice. Julie has a strong voice too, but she’s not as in command of her voice.

Me: Some people just have it more than others, and Laurie’s just got it.

WB: Yes, she can sing the real high songs, and belt them out. Not everybody can do that.

Me: So Debi was there, obviously. What other familiar faces did you see at the show? Did you see Ed [PopTarts fan-turned-roadie)?

WB: Ed was there and as a matter of fact I am writing a thank-you card out to Ed. I just started writing the envelop today. Thinking of what maybe I could possibly get for him.

Me: A taxidermied wolf.

WB: Yeah, you’re probably right about that. I’d like to think of something else in addition to the card, that’s just to start.

He was there. Linda Lou whom I mentioned, she was more of a bigger fan, but none of our usual groupies were there because this is a private club. A couple of them were pretty big fans though, like Bill Bartell who runs the club. He’s come and seen us at other gigs, definitely a fan.

Me: Have you gotten a lot of fan responses/feedback as you’ve let folks know these are the last set of shows?

WB: No, because one of the last shows that we did, we didn’t realize it would be our last show as the four original PopTarts. It was a high school reunion, and it was a really good show. I actually heard from a friend of mine, from back in the radio days who now works for LiveNation actually, and she texted me saying her cousin was at the Chanel reunion and he said the PopTarts were fabulous and were such a good time. That was good to hear, and I knew it was a good show. We had a lot of laughs.

Right after that, Julie and Lisa got into a big argument, and Lisa basically quit. That was really kind of it — nobody knew it, though. So, Julie said she’d like to finish out the year; I said I really don’t, but I agreed to finish out the private events like this club or the upcoming tree lighting, gigs where organizers might have trouble finding new talent at the last minute. The more regular gigs at bars and restaurants, ones where our groupies would gather, those ones we could cancel because those establishments are booking new bands each week all the time.

So it hasn’t been the original four PopTarts, but it has been two original members with two subs, Debi and Kellie, people who had PopTart names and personas of their own.

Me: When you first started the PopTarts, how long did you expect it to last?

WB: I figured maybe a few years, maybe a couple…

Me: Define ‘a couple.’

WB: Like two? Maybe five. Really, I was hoping for you guys to get through college, so that would have been about six years. Because this meant to be a part-time job to make some money. At that time I was just starting out as a real-estate appraiser so I wasn’t making much money there. So I got licensed around the same time that I started the PopTarts. Two things that up until right now I’m still doing 15 years later.

I did the math, too – I’ve been performing for 55 years. I joined my first band when I was 13, Tyr. One of them named it, I think it was a Greek god or something. One guy, David, still plays as a full-time keyboard player in the DC area. Tom, our bass player, he’s in a band in Texas and still plays to this day. I don’t know about our drummer or lead guitar player, but from being friends on Instagram, the rest of us comment on each other’s stuff once in a while. It’s these guys I played with when I was 13-years-old — I think that’s kind of interesting, that three out of five of us aren’t just playing but performing professionally.

Me: It goes to show that you don’t necessarily grow out of it. We got used to you both being in a band from whenever you guys started your band with Jim and Bob. I was what, in third or fourth grade?

WB: We did stuff with them, gosh, when you guys were really young. Then we had GBDB when you were in high school and college; that actually came out of your high school after-graduation ceremony with your classmates’ parents.

Me: You’ve started new bands at many different ages of your life, from your childhood up until your fifties. How does it feel starting a band when you’re older compare to starting one when you’re 13?

WB: Well, every other band that I’ve been in could be called a ‘band.’ The PopTarts sang to tracks, so that’s different. With the other groups, here and there I played a little bit of keyboards or something, but mostly I was the lead singer. It was always being the performer, because you’re the front person. When I was in the Fondelles, it was me singing James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Blues Brothers catalog before the Blues Brothers. All that kind of music with a horn section and mostly if not all guys behind me. A big part of it is performative. I wonder sometimes, how good a singer am I? I don’t think I’m that great of a singer but I’m obviously a good enough of one that I’ve been the lead singer for a lot of bands. I have a good natural tone, too, but I think my performance skills, which I’ve never worked on, always show up when I’m singing. It’s probably why I worked well as a traffic reporter and why I have been able to do some commercial modeling. It’s all performative. It’s a bit of my personality that comes easily to me.

Me: It’s interesting what you say about your performing ability in comparison to your singing. How do you hype yourself up before a performance or give yourself confidence if you’re like “I don’t have the strongest voice”? It’s just not always that people are that honest about their limitations.

WB: For a long time I didn’t think of it that way. I just figured if I was a good enough singer and somebody was gonna put me in their band, I was good enough. Maybe being in the PopTarts with all the harmonies and being with not just Laurie but Lisa and Julie, who are both strong singers too. It’s like “Oh, okay I get it more now.” There’s technical stuff that I never learned, I never took singing lessons, those kinds of things. Laurie, though, took lessons for a very long time, and she has excellent control.

As far as psyching myself up to perform, I just made it very easy with the PopTarts because I was Wild Blueberry. I never conscientiously thought “Now I’m going in character as Wild Blueberry,” but there it was. I’m in a crazy outfit, a clip-on ponytail, go-go boots. You’re just putting on the pieces and you just do it. When I was younger it probably grew out of the fact I was the oldest child. I was in charge of a lot of things, had a lot of responsibility. At school, I was always the one who had to dust the nuns’ house, or in elementary school I was chosen to be on the microphone to call the groups at the end of the day over the PA. I had that confidence because people always gave me a lot of responsibility. I always was the babysitter. I didn’t ever think “I can’t do this,” it was just what I did. I never really had stage fright or jitters. I don’t know if that’s weird, most people say they do. Barbra Streisand, she’s doing a lot of interviews for her book, and she mentions she has bad stage fright. Plenty of people do, which I think is interesting that they make themselves get over it and go up on stage and do it. *Laughs* Surprised they bother if it’s really that horrible for them! But they do.

Me: I could always tell that you were never nervous on stage. You’ve never been nervous about performing, sharing jokes, singing, putting yourself out there. It’s something I’ve always admired, it made you a great traffic reporter, it made you a good lead singer, a good friend and good mom.

I’d like to touch on what you said about performing, that you took it on almost as a responsibility. It became such a part of your life – doing radio traffic, being in bands, even with real estate appraising, I guess you don’t ‘perform’ but rather zhuzh things up to make a house seem more appeasing. But then again I don’t know anything about appraisals.

WB: Well, I don’t know, maybe, but it’s just because you’re always going to a new place, the home that’s getting appraised. You’re meeting new people, the owners, who let you into their homes. You can’t be a scaredy cat. You’ve just gotta do it. And you’re going into their home. There was one where I pretty much turned around and left, I thought “This guy is weird, this place is weird.”

Me: This makes me think of your time as a traffic reporter in the helicopter. You initially found the experience a bit nervewracking, but you just were like “I’ve gotta do this.” It’s cool to see your approach to performing is also “I’ve gotta do this. There’s no reason to be nervous.” I don’t think most people can just turn that off.

WB: Right, and I’ve just been going on what my past experience was, which that I always was able to it well.

Me: I want to go back to what you said about the PopTarts feeling routine – when did it start to feel like a job? Has it always felt like a job?

WB: You know what, I think we tended to not think of it as, I don’t want to say as extraordinary as it was, but how special it was. We, and I have a terrible memory and would have to go back and look, we played a lot events and a lot of big events, small events, wedding receptions, bars, clubs, people’s houses – we were in someone’s living room once with just a few guests. There’s been a wide variety – inside, outside, our Christmas shows at the Rocksino, a performance at the Natural History Museum, pretty nice venues, too.

There was just something about the PopTarts, obviously a ton of it is the music, that people really liked. They liked watching us sing it, and we developed very quickly a stage show that a lot of people told us was very similar to stuff they’d seen in Vegas, and they would usually say “But you’re better than anybody I saw in Vegas! You’re more funny!” That kind of stuff. A lot of patter between PopTarts, which was never rehearsed. It was spontaneous, and if somebody said something or someone had a funny line sometimes we’d use it again over the years.

A lot of times we just were very good at bantering, and it would be funny. People laughed and said things like “I always tell my friends, when you come to see the PopTarts you have to listen to them between songs cause they’re funny!” A lot of times people just listen for the music, and that was just sheer luck.

We knew that because we weren’t playing instruments, we wanted to get go-go boots to kind of have a little bit of look. But we never really talked about having banter between the songs, that developed naturally along with other bits.

Like how our tip jar was a trash can. We decided we needed a tip jar for times when we sold CDs at our events. We needed something if people came up they could just pay directly in the tip can. I was at BigLots and saw a real ’60s-looking little trashcan, not real big, the step-on kind. I told Julie, “Why don’t we use this as our tip jar?” She laughed and said, “Tips go in the trash!” And so she started to say at our events “We’re not throwing your money away!” and people got a kick out of it.

That kind of stuff just developed. I always am going to the thrift store, which I think your sisters are doing this afternoon by the way, and I saw a toaster. I brought it home and had your dad cut the cord off this big, old-fashioned looking toaster. We put it on our merch table with little fliers Julie had made. She’s say “Our fliers are in the toaster ’cause we’re the PopTarts!” Just stuff like that, it grew and people loved it. Not everybody, obviously some people probably thought we were corny as hell or whatever, but a lot of people got a lot of amusement and pleasure out of our cornball antics. *Laughs*

Me: Talk to me about some memorable interactions you’ve had – I’m remembering that one you told us about that young girl who was a fan.

WB: Oh her name is Lainey. Her grandmother has a gig that we’ve played several times over the years at a bowling alley. The woman who ran the bar at the alley was related in some way to Lainey’s grandmother, who had seen us perform there. So the next time we were there she brought her granddaughter because she knew it would be suitable. At the time Lainey was like two-years-old. Well, now she’s like 11. She knows all the songs, she sends us Christmas cards, and when she was little she wore her snow boots around the house and sing “Boots Are Made For Walkin.” There were a lot of grandparent-grandchild relationships that we saw, because kids could come to our events too.

Then there were other people who — just recently we performed at a luncheon, and this woman in the audience had a couple of homemade signs like “We Love the PopTarts.” We’ve had people come who’ve made t-shirts that say “We Love the PopTarts.” We’ve had people give us jewelry and stuff that they’ve made for us. A couple of women have made us tie-dye scarves in our colors.

This woman at the luncheon came up to me at the end and said “I don’t know if you remember these signs, but my sister made these. She was a big fan of yours, and she passed away.” Of course I’m like “Oh gosh, do you think she’s here today?” and she said “She was definitely here.” This woman had tears in her eyes. Now, stuff like that wouldn’t happen all the time, but it would happen. We had a fan, Johnny, an older guy, he ended up getting sick and dying. We were very good friends with him, he’d had us over at his apartment one time with his live-in girlfriend, Kathy. When he died, we sang “Johnny Angel” at the funeral home, because he was a big fan. Stuff like that is just not normal, when you think of it like that.

Me: What are some other memorable interactions or things you’ve learned or seen being an older performer and performing these older standards for older folks. What do people say to you? Do they envy you, criticize you?

WB: Oh a lot of women would say “I wanna be a PopTart, or “If you need a fill-in —!” over the years. Many seemed like the would love to be doing it. And you can look out and see the people singing along, mouthing the words, so it’s all very communal in that sense.

We would start to know different people who came all the time whom we joked about. One time there was a guy in the audience who looked like John Denver, and Laurie points to him and says “Look, John Denver’s here!” So any time we saw him at future gigs, “Look, there’s John Denver!” We had a Jack Nicholson, a few people like that.

In another song I’m like “Hey girl, you better shut your mouth” — I might change ‘girl’ to whoever’s name it is throwing the party, ‘Hey Jeremy, you better shut your mouth!” Just personalize it for them, they’d get a kick out of it. Other times we’d pick out some lady in the audience dancing and say “I want that bitch’s boots!” Something like that. We would read the crowd and gauge how far we could go. Sometimes we could get a little risqué if it was all adults and pertinent. Not a lot but here and there.

We went to visit another man in hospice before he died, all four of us. His cousin that he used to come to gigs with still has been coming to this day. We’ve been to a few funerals and hospice, we’ve sent flowers. Over the years we’ve lost a couple of older fans. We would get invited to birthday parties, not even to perform, just cause they wanted us there at their party.

Me: Aw, very sweet!

WB: There you have it!

Me: What are some of your most memorable shows?

WB: Probably, just because they were big productions, the Christmas shows or Beach party shows. Because we had more of a set, a few other people “in the cast,” a nice big green room with our own bathroom.

Me: The full star treatment.

WB: Yeah, so those would probably be the most memorable. I mean, in comparison to the routine of playing in a restaurant, sometimes next to the men’s room. And we’d joke about that, singing “Hey guys, you can come right by us! You wash your hands?”

Me: Where are some of the oddest places you’ve performed?

WB: I don’t know, not that it’s odd but we went to Chicago one year we had put out our Christmas record. At a TV studio, we did a couple numbers. A lot of other outdoor amphitheater type things, but nothing really that out there. Maybe beside a swimming pool?

Although there’s plenty of situations where you’re like “Okay, for go-go boots, this is not the ideal surface underneath,” otherwise can’t think of anything – people’s living rooms, golf courses, all over we’ve played.

Me: Were there any venues where the space was just awful? You don’t have to name them.qq

WB: No not really. The nursing homes you just feel bad for the people there. Julie hated it because they’d always be like “You’re so loud!” and she’d go “Turn your hearing aids down!” *Laughs* Very sympathetic!

Me: Julie loves having things loud. That show I saw of yours recently at Fairview Fundays… so loud.

WB: She loves it to be loud. That was a bad one, getting to that stage slogging through the mud.

Me: What are some other challenges that come with being in a group like this, ones you anticipated and ones you didn’t?

WB: Being four people doing this consistently did get pretty intense. There were some years where we did 160 gigs, which is a lot of gigs. On top of maintaining a job and being the four original tarts, I think that was a pretty big accomplishment. We were all very busy, four different personalities. You know how bands are – they’re notorious for personality conflicts and being unable to compromise and get things done. It never really got that hard. Towards the end now… sometimes the glare driving late at night is harder. Many older people don’t like driving at night. I don’t feel unsafe doing it, but I don’t really like to do it, so I’m glad these late-night commutes are over. They never used to bother me.

As you know, I do yoga and stretch and I think that’s been really important. Because some of us really complain about the boots, and they’re probably the least in-shape. You need to stretch out your feet, legs, hips when you’re wearing 3-inch heels, dancing around in them. No matter what your age is.

Me: It’s work.

WB: It is work! That was another thing – I’d think to myself “Ugh, I don’t want to do it,” and then I’d get there and be fine, because the people were enjoying it, I was getting paid, and I was getting a good workout. Most of the time, I would work up a sweat. So I’d say to myself “I’m getting paid to drink, workout, have people tell me how great I am. How can I complain?” You can’t, really.

Me: That’s definitely a shift that I’m sure applies to many people in the arts. It can feel like work or a project, but once you hit the stage, once you’re doing the craft, “Oh this is why I do this.”

WB: Yeah, it’s like you get the flow. Or again, people coming up to you every single time you play. Not everyone was coming up like “Oh my dead sister is here with us…” but every single time we would play, more than one person: “Oh you’re so much fun, “Oh this is so great, “We love you guys!” Every single time. We got a lot of gloss or whatever you want to call it. I’m sure there were people who were like “Ugh, they’re not playing instruments.” And I get it. I was a little surprised that people liked it for so long and so consistently. We added some songs here and there, but there are only so many ’60s girl group songs out there that are A. good, and B. you’d wanna do and people will know. A lot of it was repetition, and people didn’t seem to care. I’ve sung “Leader of the Pack” I don’t know how many number of times. Or “Boots Are Made for Walking” – if you’re gonna be doing ’60s girl group, those are two songs people are going to request. Along with Petula Clark’s “Downtown,” “You Don’t Own Me,” “Be My Baby.” There were ones that were always gonna be in the show.

Me: This goes back to what we were talking about before, talking about creative things and endeavors as businesses. Thinking of the effort that goes into art, because art is all about expression and following your heart, going with the natural impulse. It’s different than what I would consider to be work or effort, or at least more natural than those two things. How do you see your work ethic playing into your artistic side?

WB: I always wanted to be on-time. I always wanted to know the words. Professionalism is a work ethic, so to speak. In all those years and gigs we’ve had, all four of us always were there. It wasn’t like you ever had to worry, “Oh is she gonna make it tonight?” There’ve been some close calls, but everyone’s been pretty professional and dependable — and it’s all on the Google calendar. Sometimes there’s be zillions of texts and all kinds of shit, but mostly it was run like a business. Julie did the business end of it, which isn’t really my thing, so that made it easy for me to do the part that was my thing, being the performer. Have the clothes, know my stuff, be on time and everything.

And I think it is true that people who aren’t artists or do creative work might think “Oh, it’s so easy!” They don’t think of the work that goes into being a performer, the rehearsal, the practice, writing a song. In some cases for some people it does spring forth, but there is a little work involved that maybe non-creative people don’t get. Maybe some people could be creative but they don’t realize that it takes a little amount of discipline. Just like anything to bring it to fruition. For some folks, they think things like “John Lennon just wrote a song on the back of an envelope” can be true. But I think in general there’s a little bit more effort or time put in towards getting something done.

I just read this thing of how peoples’ presumptions about real estate agent. “They open the door, let you in, and they make all this money when you buy the house.” Well, it’s more than what they show in all these real-estate shows, and that’s where they make it look like they just run around and hold doors open.

When we started out, we were older women, and we lugged around our gear, set it up, did the show, tore it down — a lot of 50-year-old women wouldn’t have done that.

Me: What has come as a surprise being in this group the past 15 years?

WB: The longevity of it and the way people loved it. That was surprising to me.

Me: You think so?

WB: Well I get it. I mean sometimes even I thought “Wow, we were really funny tonight.” I tried to think of everything we said, and since I didn’t write it down in the middle of the show… it was always spontaneous and people were having a real good time. And that banter kept happening for 15 years. We didn’t start off on too slow of a start. We ramped it up real quick and kept busy. Covid slowed things down, but people were shocked. As far as bands in Cleveland I think we’re one of the top bands in terms of numbers of performances.

Me: Really?

WB: Oh easily! Nobody was doing 130, 140, 160 shows a year. Back when we were playing Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and maybe even have another gig during the day at a luncheon. We’d do day-things like luncheons, weddings, 60th birthday parties, etc. The corvette club would have an event. All kinds of car shows, senior centers, local city events like a performance at the Rocky River gazebo.

Me: I never realized that among the pantheon of the Cleveland music scene that you would also be one of the top performing acts. I’m not as familiar with the scene since I don’t live there anymore, but how does it feel being the music scene in your fifties and sixties in comparison to when you were doing Separate Checks or the Fondelles in your younger years?

WB: The PopTarts have a connection with Michael Stanley, who was a big Cleveland rockstar so to speak, because Julie’s boyfriend is in the Michael Stanley Band. So we did their Christmas show two Christmases ago, and I would see people at the show like old rock critics like Anastasia Pantsios in the crowd. It was interesting because they were some of the same faces at our shows in the ’80s and ’90s when we were doing rock. The PopTarts played at the Rock Hall a couple of times, too.

When I was doing the rock stuff, there was a scene and Scene Magazine and this and that. There was a scene, you’d go to the Fantasy and you knew the different bands, and members of those bands would be in the audience checking out other acts. But it wasn’t like now where you could go online and watch videos and see everything that’s going on. Everything was harder back in the day – where is somebody playing? You couldn’t ask Siri, “Hey, where are Wild Giraffes tonight?” You had to look in the Scene.

When I was back doing live music with the Fondelles or Leisure Set, I worked part time in a vintage clothing store, did a little modeling there that might lead to our photos in the paper. There was always that clothing connection to the scene. One of the guys in those bands, Pete George, is now a comedian in LA. It’s interesting that people continue to be creatives. But of course I know people like guitar players who stopped simply because their arthritis got too bad.

Me: What else do you think prevents people from being in a band?

WB: It’s hard to get the people together. Somebody’s got to be the Julie, make it happen. Otherwise I think musicians are, I don’t want to say notoriously lazy, but a lot of times they’d rather just be doing the creative stuff. They don’t want to be out booking gigs, they don’t want to carry the equipment. When you’re younger it’s easier; when you’re older, you might think “ugh.” You might have another job. When you’re younger you might be trying to make it big and have it be your income. Being older, you might rather sit at your house and watch TV and not want to rehearse.

One of the worst things with the PopTarts was going out during the winter in a mini skirt, the boots. In the summer it’s a lot easier but as you get older it’s a lot harder; the weather’s bad, you gotta drive somewhere. People just don’t want to do that.

Me: What will you miss about doing this?

WB: I always know whenever I haven’t been in a band, you always realize, and I’m old enough to know it and I’ve said it for years: if you’re a singer, you have to have a band or a project. Because who are you going to perform for? If you’re a pianist or guitarist you can sit in your home and play, enjoy yourself, and maybe the performance part isn’t as necessary. But part of my creative thing is being a performer. So I know I won’t really be performing. It’s weird because it’s nice to hear people say they enjoyed your show, you’re so funny, etc, and I won’t get that anymore

Something that they, “they,” tell you is, you know when you’re doing stuff and you’re having the flow? That is something that I can’t really take credit for. It’s just something that when I’m doing it, it just happens. That’s like the flow for me. How many things in your life do you really have that with? Probably not many. But if somebody like by best friend Lori says, “Oh I know you! You’ll be doing something else!” I don’t know.

Me: That’s of course what I’ve been wondering too. How will you express your music side once this ends?

WB: I don’t know how much I’ll do. I have your dad, but neither he nor I will be the ones to organize something. Bob Burford, who would be great to do something with, him or Jim Butterfield, but Bob’s down in Kent and Jim lives part time in Florida. No one really seems that gungho on doing anything. It might be fun to just once in a while get together in the basement and jam, play around together. Who knows if that’ll happen or not. Don’t know!

Me: You don’t sound too sad about that, which I hope you’re not.

WB: There’ve been years where I wasn’t in a band. I’m also not great at doing the half-hour of practice everyday with my keyboard. There’ll be a couple of months where I’ll play a whole lot and then not touch it for six months. I know I could be much more competent if I wanted to, I just don’t want to, or I haven’t had the time and inclination to stick with it enough. But never say never.

Me: Well it seems like Julie won’t slow down. Are you feeling any type of way about how it ended?

WB: That is kind of a bummer. In Covid, Lisa and Laurie did their own little duo. I get it, because people were hiring duos. But, they went to a lot of the spots the PopTarts played at and took those gigs. They started this up and never told Julie or I. We found out about it from Debi who saw it on Facebook. I felt that was very uncool, because it wasn’t like they needed our blessing, but they were using our equipment, publicity photos that Julie had arranged for us and cutting she and I out. *Laughs* I guess that was sort of the beginning of the end, a few years ago. Even though we somewhat got it back together, it was never the same. It was more like a long goodbye.

Even though we weren’t getting along though these last few years, the audience never knew. They thought we were best friends, because we were professional. We did our jobs, and folks loved it. It is kind of a shame that we couldn’t be like “Here’s the end” to our fans so we could let them know, the real groupies. Or maybe, if things had not come to a head, we’d have kept going and then I’d have felt tired of doing then and I would have quit. And I didn’t want to quit because I was a founding member. That was one of the reason I kept going, because I was getting a little ‘meh’ to it all a while ago.

Me: What won’t you miss?

WB: I won’t miss getting all dressed up to go out and do it. And I won’t miss in-between songs… like this last gig. I said to Debi, “If this wasn’t basically our last gig, I would be giving Julie such shit.” She had a setlist she sent to us, and she was taking so long between songs and I have no idea what she was doing. It was pissing me off, and you have to kinda just stand there with your thumb up your ass like “Okay, start the next song.” That was always a pet peeve of mine in a live band – how much time do you need to take between songs? That’s part of your job, I feel, as a performer. Yeah sometimes you may have to change a guitar, or maybe you’ll switch up the song order to better suit the crowd’s dancing. But this shouldn’t take that long. I won’t miss that at all.

Me: So what happens to all the go-go boots?

WB: The pair I’m wearing Saturday night are totally falling apart, my red ones. If we were still together and doing a bunch of Christmas shows, I’d have bought a new pair. These things can go directly into the trashcan, I’m honestly surprised they’ll make it through this gig.

I’m gonna keep a couple of decent pairs. I’m going to keep a lot of Christmas jewelry, Halloween-type feathered hats, St. Patrick’s Day green crap. Whatever that I think is sort of good I’m going to keep for the costume box. The hairpieces, they don’t take up much room, not sure if anyone could ever use them for anything. As far as the rest of the clothes go it’s like a pair of fishnets, little black dresses/skirts, so nothing that special. I do have a Santa Claus cap and vest that I’ll keep for your sister when she dresses up for her kids at school.

Me: Well it’s been very cool seeing this all unfold. When this first started, we as kids were a little bit like “Why is our mom gonna do this? It’s so weird that she wants to dress up and sing these old songs?” I gotta say that you really changed my perception of that and my perception of what it means to get older and perform, and how rewarding it can be to have a second or third act.

WB: You’re welcome, love you.

Me: Hope you enjoy your last gig! Holiday gigs are always fun, I still think about holiday concerts I played in high school fondly.

WB: This’ll be the tree lighting. So we’ll sing a few songs, they’ll do their speeches, we’ll sing some more and then that’ll be it.

The PopTarts play their final gig at the City of Aurora tree lighting at the Aurora Library Gazebo on Saturday, November 25th at 4:30 pm.